July 13, 2012
A Post-Tribulation Rapture | Prophecy in the News

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  1. Thank you. I attended evangelical churches for years where the idea of a pretribulation rapture was an article of faith. I was lockstep with it until my Godly wife convinced me that there is scant scriptural support for the doctrine. In fact, the idea came into the forefront of evangelical thinking only about 100 years ago.

    How Christians view the timing of the rapture has enormous importance on how we conduct and plan our lives and how urgently we present our faith to others. I now honestly cannot understand how so many wonderful men and woman who are so versed in the faith and scripture became subject to this mass delusion. Jesus said it all: “After the tribulation …” Who am I to argue?

  2. Without any doubt whatsoever…. Jesus clearly taught the rapture would begin the tribulation… LUKE 21:36… Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”… DEFINE the word “ALL”… the word All simply means “ALL” – That is to say Escape “ALL” of the 7 Year Tribulation… Escape “ALL” of the 7 seals… Escape “ALL” of the 7 trumpets… and Escape “ALL” of the 7 bowls of wrath… that is why Jesus said in Luke 21:34-35… “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. AGAIN… this is clearly indicated in the parable of the 10 virgins… 25th Chapter of Matthew… verses 1-13… those who are Ready and Waiting… are Taken… those who are not are Left Behind… GET READY JESUS IS COMING SOON!…

    Revelation 3:11

    I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

  3. I really appreciate the discussion I read here on this site, and I especially appreciate the apologetic for a post-trib rapture you share with your readers. I invited any/all persons interested in this subject to read my newest book, “Discovery to Catastrophe.” A fictional work in the vein of the Left Behind series, though the scripture references are not fictional, it deals with a man who discovers what the Bible says about the timing of the rapture, and the second coming of Christ. Then struggles with how he should live in light of facing life under the anti-Christ system.

    After being taught a pre-trib rapture by my pastor and church body for a number of years, following Hal Lindsay, Salem Kirban, and other pre-trib rapture gurus, I began a serious study of scripture myself. What I learned, to my horror, was that the Bible clearly teaches us the rapture of the saints follows immediately the resurrection of the righteous dead, and all this occurs at the END of the period we call the great tribulation. I have continued to study it over the past 30 years, and am more convinced the Bible is true, and the machinations of men to wrest it to say there is a pre-trib rapture is just that — the twisting and wresting of the truth to satisfy their own hopes, dreams, desires, and wishes.

    Every scripture you have shared is what the Bible clearly states about Christ’s second coming. One thing I notice is that good, honest intentioned laymen fail to observe how the scripture was written. That is, it is translated to us in paragraphs, and a paragraph is constructed in both the original Greek, and in the English translations, to convey one central theme. So when Mt 24:29 – 31, and Mk 13:24 – 27 say, “But immediately after the tribulation of those days … THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds … from the farthest end of the earth, to the farthest end of heaven (Mk 13:27),” these are all written with a central theme in mind. That central theme is the gathering together of God’s elect from the whole earth will come immediately after the tribulation (Mt 24:29). And no, the elect mentioned here is not Israel, for Israel has not obtained the election (Ro 11:7).

    It may seem like I’m throwing out a disconnected group of thoughts, and in some respect I am as I respond to various objections raised by some commentators who hold so tightly to the pre-trib rapture they can’t see the truth of what the Bible teaches. Some claim the Lord’s statement about his coming as a thief in the night cannot be true if the post-trib rapture position is correct as we can know (approximately) when the Lord will come as we discern the start of the tribulation period. Two things are important here, first – Jesus said that no one knew the ‘day or the hour’ when he would return, only the Father in heaven. Then he went on to discuss the fig tree generation, and some are confused about that. The fact there are two words in the Greek language which define time may help us. Chronos time deals with days/hours as defined by the movement of the sun/moon/stars, whence we get chronograph (a watch, or timepiece) from. The second word is Kairos time, meaning (in general) a season (like Christmas, Easter, etc. by the decorations, products displayed for sale, etc.). We can know the season of his return – by observing the budding of the fig tree – though we will truly never know the day, or the hour.

    The second aspect of his coming like a thief is that it is only those who are NOT of the day (not attempting to live for God), but are of the night – it will come unexpectedly, as a thief. Re 3:3 says it most clearly, “Remember therefore what you have received and heard: and keep it, and repent. If therefore you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you.” Here he states it is those who are asleep – who will be overtaken like a thief in the night – not those who have repented, and are awake.

    I pray these biblical insights will be of help to someone who is genuinely searching for God’s true wisdom. If we will just allow the scripture inform us (vs. us informing scripture what it means), then we will find what the Lord has to tell us.

    A post-trib rapture is not going to be pretty, and humanly I recoil from the thoughts of suffering under the hand of the anti-Christ like any other human being, but I look forward with great anticipation, the return of our wonderful Lord!

  4. My two cents:
    In regards to this issue of the election mentioned in Mt.24:31 – and the case being built here that the elect is the church, in my opinion is false. The whole discussion needs to back up to this point and the use of this word.(election) To what and to whom does it apply? If we get this wrong then we get way off. If I am wrong, then i appreciate your concern that i may fall for the ‘Mark’, however if i wake up and the peace treaty with Israel is being signed, i’ll really know then I was wrong, and i’ll think of you all kindly! My focus will be on looking for Jesus any time now, and i might encourage all to be looking rather than knowing the approximate time through your Hermaneutics, which could cause you to not be looking up, but waiting till…

    You all may have heard the phrase the New T. Is in the Old concealed, and Old T. is in the New revealed, right? So what about Mt 24:31? In Isaiah we find this: Isa.11:12 “….and (He) will gather together the dispersed of Judah (Jews) from the four corners of the earth.” This gathering is also predicted in Isaiah 43:5, 54:7, and Zach. 2:6

    With Love,
    Jim

  5. [Vince, I would love your analysis of this little snippet which I came across while on the net. Lord bless.]

    PRETRIB RAPTURE SECRETS

    How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven (He’s now there with the Father) “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. (“The Rapture Question,” by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn’t dare to even list, in its scripture index, the too-hot-to-handle Acts 3:21!) Since Jesus can’t even leave heaven before the tribulation ends (Acts 2:34,35 echo this), the rapture therefore can’t take place before the end of the trib! (The same Acts verses were also too hot for John Darby – the so-called “father of dispensationalism” – to list in the scripture index in his “Letters”!)
    Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The “rest” for “all them that believe” is tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who’d be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the posttrib end of “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which is Israel’s posttrib resurrection!)
    Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this “rapture” was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” ["gathering"] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!).
    Other Google articles on the 182-year-old pretrib rapture view include “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Pretrib Rapture Scholar Wannabes,” “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Walvoord Melts Ice,” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “Thieves’ Marketing,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” and “Christ’s return is NOT imminent!” – all by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books).

  6. I hope the Lord is Pre-trib, or Mid-Trib but Post-Trib seems to be the default position. 2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    If God is not option #1 or #2 then lots of folks are gonna be shaken in their mind by what the next verse describes as the unveiling of the Anti-Christ. I personally do not want that charge laid at my feet that I saw the sword coming and I did not give warning! People are being martyred as we speak in foreign lands. I think bimbo-headed Americans need to get their heads out of materialistic/What’s in it for me sand, and decide if they believe the Doctrine enough to die for it!

    My questions;
    Mt. 24 has several references to things that are specifically Jewish – “Sabbath, Judea, Housetops, Abomination of Desolation.” Pre-trib adherents have trouble seeing the church here. What are other corroborating scriptures?

    2. Kenneth – Can you please give other scriptural references that the first resurrection will occur in phases? I have heard this theory and am trying to get my head around it.

    • Second thessalonians positively says those that believe anything other than the truth about “standing till the end”not only believe the LIE, they actually LOVE the lie! And they perish because of they loved the lie of a pretrib rapture.

    • Dealing with your question from Matthew 24, we have to remember that this portion is referring to those who are in Judaea. They are instructed to flee to the mountains when the abomination of desolation takes place. This instruction is specifically for the inhabitants of Judaea at that time. We find this account again in Luke 21 and Mark 13.

  7. I’m with you Irvin. God did not zap Noah out of trouble. He had him build a ark to protect him. Which required Noah obedience.

  8. I’ve come to think about the rapture and it’s placement around the tribulation. I do think it would happen before the end of the 7 year tribulation. Here is why: “the saints” can refer to the many who will come to Christ during the tribulation whether we’re here or not. Also, John describes the tribulation from above: Why would God have John describe it in that way? We are not to know when Jesus returns, but we are given enough information to know when to expect him for the great and final battle. So is it possible He gathers His people at a time we will not expect since we already know that He’ll return which is 1,200 days after the antichrist defiles the new temple? I’ve come to the conclusion to not expect the rapture before the tribulation so that I’m not discouraged if I am to endure such a time, but I hope that our Father protects us from such a time. The real thing that matters here is that a person has repented, has asked for forgiveness, and receives God’s gift that is offered to all. No matter, what I will live for Jesus the Christ, and when my time comes my last words will be “Lord please recieve me”.

  9. I really enjoy End Time and watch every chance I get. However, my question is… If we know that one will left and one taken “caught up”. That doesn’t refer to the second coming, does it?

    • This is referring to what people commonly know as the rapture. When we look through the scriptures though we know that the rapture happens at the time of the second coming. For example 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 shows those in Christ being caught up to meet the Lord in the air as He is descending. We know that the Lord only comes back one more time so this is clearly showing the second coming. As a result we understand that one is taken and one is left at the time of the second coming.

      • How shall we handle not taking the mark? Do you think we should start putting things away. A lot of people (saints) that I know, are getting guns galore, & I worry that ‘what if I cave’? I’m on a lot of medications that I cannot store ahead.

        • The best advice I can give is what Jesus said in Matthew 6:33, seek first His kingdom and righteousness and He will take care of the necessities.

  10. for those who believe in a pre-trib theory, where does Christ descend in this Scripture? where is the trumpet?
    ‎(Rev 4:1) After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    (Rev 4:2) And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

    (Rev 4:3) And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

    this looks more like Christ descending:
    (Rev 10:1) And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

    (Rev 10:2) And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

    (Rev 10:3) And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

  11. Amen totally agree with entime ministries on this topic. Like the scripture say “immediately after the tribulation, god will send forth his angeles to gather his Elect. We the church are the elect of the new testament, according to many scriptures.

    For someone to be raptured first you must be transformed 1 Corinthians 15. But this transformation Does not happen untill the Final trumpet. Final trumpet happens after the great tribulation.

    God will be with his church untill the end of the age! Matthew 28:20.

  12. Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    If the word of God is true. (And it is) then you would have ask yourself… If the sun and moon stopped shining do you believe anyone would be tending the field or working at the mill?

    another thing.
    revelations 7:13
    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    John knew the Church very well.. for him to ask who was before God should say something.. its not like it was mistakenly written down. to me I believe that the rapture took place before the great tribulation and these people are those saved after the rapture.. and to me thats awesome news! Amen and praise to the most high who is Holy and Merciful! Amen

    • The phrase that they came out of the tribulation can not refer to being saved from going through it because the blood on their robes shows that they were martyred for belonging to and maintaining their testimony for Christ. And coming out of something to me means that you went though it like when you come out of storm. If they were not in the tribulation why are they martyred with blood on their robes? I believe that the rapture is post tribulation and that is why there are so many many warnings and exhortations to stand firm til the end. Jesus said that He will never leave us nor forsake us. I do not want to go through the tribulation but the prize is not here in our mortality but with Christ in our eternal bodies living with Him. An instant of fear and suffering is nothing in comparison to our eternal joy with Christ. Wait til He comes and stay true to Him.

    • We have to make sure that we take Matthew 24 in context. The passage dealing with two men in the field, one being taken and the other left is given in a different thought from verse 29. This was given after Jesus made the comparison between the last days and the days of Noah. In Matthew 24:29-31 we learn that immediately after the tribulation the sun is darkened, the moon turns to blood, the stars fall from heaven, the powers of the heavens are shaken, the Son of man is seen coming in the clouds, and He gathers together His elect. So this is clearly told to us to happen after the tribulation. First of all we mistakenly interpret Matthew 24 if we take it all the way through as one thought or story. Jesus gave multiple teachings within this chapter to help us understand when the end of this age would be. If we insist on taking it all as one thought then the two in the field, one being taken and the other left clearly happens after the tribulation.

      Again with Revelation 7 we need to take the context into consideration. This is interjected right between the 6th and the 7th seal. If you will study the 6th seal you will find that it is the same event as recorded in Matthew 24:29-31. So Revelation 7 is happening at the end of the tribulation. Also the answer in Revelation 7:14 causes us to ask a question. How could people come out of great tribulation if they were never in it? A person cannot come out of something that they are not in. So these people seen in Revelation 7:13 were in the tribulation.

  13. JOHN 11:24-25
    Marth saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again (Lazarus) in the ressurection at the last day. The last day is after the tribulation. Revelation 20:V 4-5. Jesus is the Ressurection and the life. There is only one Ressurection.

  14. I believe in the pre-trib rapture
    I respectfully diagree with your ministry on that
    However I very much enjoy your insight into the machinations
    Of the ruler of this world in bringing the new world order
    Into existence once again, not present since Babel

  15. this is stupid did noah and lot go thru the bad times, neither will we christians, will be gone in a twinking of an eye for everyone to see and know where christians have gone the minute the trib starts.

    • Noah and Lot were removed before the wrath of God was poured out and they were not persecuted by it. The church will also not be persecuted by God’s wrath. However the tribulation is not the wrath of God. Revelation 12:12 shows us that it is the wrath of Satan. The people of God have gone through periods of Satan’s wrath all throughout history. In the story of Job we find that God actually brings up Job to Satan and then allows Satan to persecute Job. In the end we find that Job received a greater blessing and God was glorified. With this being said we know that saints, members of God’s church, will be here during the time of the Antichrist because of Revelation 13:7. The key point to understand is that the tribulation is the wrath of Satan not the wrath of God.

  16. So people can wait on serving Jesus Christ until they see the abomination of desolation and the anti-christ is made known. Then they can become serious because you could estimate Jesus’ return in 7 years. His return or rapture at the end of the tribulation would not be much of a thief when you are expecting His return.

    • In 1 Thessalonians 5 we learn that the Lord will come as a thief to those who are in darkness, not to those who are in the light. The coming of the Lord should not take those who are in the light by surprise. Also regardless whether a person believes in a pre or post tribulation rapture, life is but a vapor. We are here today but we could be gone tomorrow. God could call anyone out into eternity at any moment so it is vital that people do not wait to serve the Lord. Today is the day of salvation.

  17. Bro Irvin,
    What is also your view of rev 2:22, does this mean if they repent, they will not be cast into great tribulation?

    • To understand this passage we need to understand the context. First of all this is not pertaining to the coming tribulation when the Antichrist will be in power. Revelation 1:19 shows us that John was to write the things he had seen, the things that are, and the things that would be hereafter. John does not begin to write the things that would be hereafter until Revelation 4. So what we find in Revelation 2 was pertaining to one one of the seven physical churches that existed in Asia Minor at that time. Secondly we find that this is pertaining to Jezebel. If you look back at verse 20 and continue reading, the passage will make more sense.

  18. Bro Irvin,
    I want to thank God for leading me to view one of your program, i agree with you, in almost all of your views.
    how long is the wrath poured? A day? A year? It was not shown in the presentation,i ask this because the last 42months is the reign of the beast, and the bible said that there will darkness in the kingdom of the beast, which was poured at the time of wrath.

    • We know from Revelation 12:12 that the tribulation will be the wrath of Satan. It will last for 3 1/2 years. Also in Revelation 12:14 we find that Israel is protected for 3 1/2 years. After that time period the Antichrist will come against Israel in what we know as the battle of Armageddon. According to Revelation 16 we understand that the wrath of God is poured out around this time. Matthew 24:29 also shows the wrath of God being poured out after the tribulation. Now to answer how long will the wrath be poured out. We are not told for sure how long but there is a likely conclusion in Daniel. Daniel 12 speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days. This clearly goes past the 3 1/2 years of tribulation by a few days. Could it be that the wrath of God is poured out during the battle of Armageddon during this additional time span given to us in Daniel 12? We don’t know for sure but this is all we can conclude at this time.

  19. What is the ” oil and the wine ” in Rev. 6:6 ?
    Rev. 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

  20. I still believe that the Holy Bible more than hints of a pre great tribulation rapture of the few. This happens after the tribulation of the seven seals. But it happens before the great tribulation of the seven angels with seven trumpets. After the tribulation when Christ returns there is a collection of half of those remaining alive.

    Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.

    Micah 7:2 The good man is perished (disappeared) out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.

    Psalm 12:1 Help, Lord; for the Godly man cease; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

    Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept the word of my patience (long-suffering), I also will keep you from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    Revelation 3:10 was spoken to the angel of the church in Philadelphia. There are different angels over different churches. Not all churches receive this promise to be kept from the hour of temptation.

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Note: Noah and the few saved ones with him were already protected from the flood in a special place just as the few will be protected during the tribulation. These next two verses of Matthew may refer to half of those left alive after the tribulation being left to repopulate earth. The half that is left are the ones not gathered up by the angels when they gathered the chosen (see Matthew 24:31). Unforgiven sinners and many forgiven sinners will not survive to this point.

    Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    Luke 17: 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for you know not what hour your Lord will come. (But we know it is after the great tribulation for those that are alive.)

    You need to wait another thousand years before the great judgment.

    Revelation 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Notice that the first resurrection is those who did not worship the beast. It does not say that the first resurrection is only those who were resurrected at one instance of time. To find out what happens to the rest of the dead read Revelation 20:15.

    • Kenneth Robinson, how you conveniently left out scriptures that clearly state the rapture will take place after the tribulation period and how you distort/misinterpret the scriptures you use to support your view of a pre-trib rapture. REV 13:7 ‘And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations;’ 2THESS 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him;’ 1THESS 5:2 ‘For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1THESS 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

      1THESS 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

      2THESS 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

      2THESS 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

      2THESS 2:4 ‘Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.’
      We are in danger when we try to make scripture fit our ideologies, philosophies, human intellect lifestyle and what makes more sense to us, but we should endevour to allow our hearts, minds, and thoughts to be changed by the Word of Jesus!

    • How can you make Matthew 24:29 say before, instead of immediately after, the tribulation of those days?

      • I don’t, you should not. The rapture of the few happens after Matthew 24:14 and before Matthew 24:29. The selecting of the half takes place after Matthew 24:29 at Matthew 24:40 & Matthew 24:41.

  21. Also to add to that, moist people miss this verse: Daniel 7:25
    And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. We know church is the saints and we would have to be here for this to happen and it clearly states 3 1/2 years

  22. Jesus, himself, actually said pretty plainly in Matthew 24 that He’s not coming to gather his elect until after the tribulation.

    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:29-31

    Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus ever say that He’s coming to get his elect before the tribulation starts. He never says, “Don’t worry guys. I’m coming to get you before all the really bad stuff that I just described happens.” But there in Matthew 24, He plainly said that He’s not coming back until after the tribulation.

    • It says the elect will be gathered from one end of heaven to the other, not from one end of earth to the other. If the elect is the church and they are gathered from heaven wouldn’t the church be in heaven?

      • Lets look at Mark 13:24-27. “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.” So when we compare this with Matthew 24 we learn that God is gathering his elect from everywhere basically. Remember 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, those in Christ rise in the air. The Lord is coming back to one place and those in Christ will rise all over the world. As a result they will have to be gathered together from the sky which is what the word “heaven” commonly refers to in scripture.

  23. Bro. Baxter, I agree with you. I Corinthains 15:52 tells us at the sounding of the last trumpet we will be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.